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March 05, 2005

Final note on the New Jersey murders

Two suspects in the Armanious case have been arrested, and authorities are saying that religious hatred had nothing to do with the crimes -- it was just a robbery gone bad.

That, of course, does nothing to mitigate the horror or heinousness of the crimes themselves, or to assuage the grief of the relatives of the victims. It does, however, seem to eliminate the possibility that these killings were an American version of the Theo van Gogh murder in Holland: a Sharia-prescribed killing in a non-Muslim country for what is a crime only under Islamic law.

CAIR-NJ President Magdy Mahmoud declared: "All those involved in the investigation of this brutal crime deserve praise for their diligence and for resisting efforts by hate-mongers from outside our state to use the tragedy as a way to damage interfaith relations."

Is that all it was? Hatemongers trying to stir up trouble and portray a robbery as something it wasn't? There is no doubt whatsoever that that is how the media elite will portray the weeks between the discovery of the bodies and the arrests of McDonald and Sanchez. But legitimate questions remain, and I am neither going to apologize or accept Mahmoud's "hatemonger" tag for asking them. I hope that facts will come out at the trial that will explain some of the features of this case that make it appear not to have been a simple robbery:

1. Early reports stated that Hossam Armanious regularly engaged Muslims in discussion on the PalTalk website -- discussions that became so heated that one Muslim threatened him: "You'd better stop this bull---- or we are going to track you down like a chicken and kill you." This was reported in the New York Post and attributed to an eyewitness who saw the threat on the site at the time.

What was done to investigate this threat? Did they find and question any Muslims who had had discussions online with Hossam Armanious? Did the Hudson County Prosector's Office question the man who asserted that it was made? Did they determine that the threat had not, in fact, been made at all? That seems most likely. If that is the case, on what evidence did they arrive at that conclusion?

Whatever the case, note that the report of this threat came not from "hatemongers outside the state," but from a Coptic Christian friend of Hossam Armanious.

2. If the motive was robbery, why was the family killed? Presumably to prevent them from identifying McDonald and Sanchez. But then we are evidently to believe that McDonald and Sanchez made repeated trips to ATM's to withdraw money -- with the quite visible ATM camera staring them in the face each time. Maybe they are irredeemably stupid -- certainly there is a lot of stupidity among petty criminals -- but it does at least raise eyebrows.

3. If the motive was robbery and the family presumably surprised McDonald and Sanchez by being at home, leading the pair to murder them, why were the murders done with such precision? Why was so much care taken to slit their throats in a uniform manner? Why wouldn't these guys simply have killed them in the quickest, easiest way possible?

4. Not long after the murders, I was contacted by a Coptic Christian who identified himself as a close friend of the Garas family (Hossam Armanious's wife's family). He claimed to have detailed information about the murders, and he gave it to me. His sources and his information appeared to be solidly based and at very least worth investigating. Some of it has been reported recently: a halal butcher whose daughter was converted to Christianity planned the murders for several months in revenge for the conversion. He fled the country shortly after the murders, but he planned them along with three others who are still in the country. The Copt gave me the names of all four, along with phone numbers and other details for two of them.

I had no idea whether or not the information I had been given was true, and I never claimed that it was. But it warranted investigation. I passed it on to the Hudson County Prosecutors Office. Neither I nor my source was contacted about any of this information for three weeks after I filed the initial report. The only time I spoke to an official there, he was unfailingly polite but unmistakably condescending and clearly believed nothing that I had to tell him. From what I understand the Copt who told me all this fared little better.

Meanwhile more information was coming from other sources, including but not limited to relatives and other close friends of the victims, that seemed to corroborate what I had already been told. When Edward DeFazio was asked about all this, his answer was self-contradictory -- leading me to a few more questions: Did his office make any attempt to find out if a halal butcher had really gone missing in the Jersey City area? Did they make any attempt to question the others named by the Copt? I happen to know that a reporter called one of these men and asked him what he thought of the killings. He began smoothly to speculate about robbery, drugs, etc. But when the reporter asked him about the possibility that it was a revenge killing for a religious conversion, his shock was palpable. His smooth veneer vanished and he suddenly began to sputter and search for words. Did this happen when the police questioned him? Did they question him at all? If not, was it because they had a presumption that this information was worthless on its face? If they did, on what did they base that presumption?

And one more time for Mr. Mahmoud: the information I got did not come from "hatemongers outside the state," but from several friends and relatives of the murdered family.

5. If the motive was simple robbery, what are we to believe about all this? That a Copt invented the story of the death threat, and that other Copts invented the story of the conversion and revenge plot? That it was just coincidental that a couple of lowlifes happened to murder this family in the same manner in which Muslims murder blasphemers and other enemies of Islam?

I hope Edward DeFazio will be courteous enough to answer. But considering that he recently forbade a reporter even to ask him about possible religious motivation for the killings, I won't be holding my breath.

Posted by Robert at March 5, 2005 08:31 AM

Comments
(Note: Comments on articles are unmoderated, and do not necessarily reflect the views of Jihad Watch or Robert Spencer. Comments that are off-topic, offensive, slanderous, or otherwise annoying may be summarily deleted. However, the fact that particular comments remain on the site IN NO WAY constitutes an endorsement by Robert Spencer of the views expressed therein.)

We need to found out the truth about these
men. You can bet if they were converted to
islam in jail the media and the cops will
down play that fact. I for one say don't
give up the search. It's more than possible
there two could have been picked by your
butcher suspect but it could be covered up.
Don't forget its a war. Even if by some
slim chance your wrong. The fog of war will
cause many mistakes that does not change
the fact that it is a war for the soul of
mankind and the cult of death is at this
time winning and the the media seems to
stupid to see that fact.

Posted by: ecil_man [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 08:47 AM

You have outlined some excellent points throughout this case, Mr. Spencer. Thank you.

It's not likely your questions will be answered by DeFazio as he seems quite satisfied with the current arrests (as reported in Newsday).

Newsday's account of murder

Edward McDonald, 25, a convicted felon and the upstairs neighbor of the Armanious family, was charged Friday with four counts of felony murder in the Jan. 11 slayings. He and his alleged accomplice, Hamilton Sanchez, 30, who also was charged, planned to rob the family of an ATM card and other funds when the situation deteriorated, DeFazio said. McDonald and Sanchez went to the Armanious' apartment at 7:30 p.m. Jan. 11, and forced their way inside after the girl's mother, Amal Garas, 46, opened the door, officials said.
They bound and gagged the mother and her two daughters then waited two hours for Hossam Armanious to return from work, officials said.
When Armanious returned, he too was tied up, but Monica managed to get free and identify one of the masked men as McDonald, DeFazio said.
"That's when he grabbed her and stabbed her," DeFazio said.
Sanchez then allegedly killed Monica's older sister Sylvia, 15, and her parents in another room, he said.

Any answers received will likely come from some ambitious reporter who continues asking the same questions as Mr. Spencer.

For now, it seems that these two felons have some culpability for the murder of the Armanious family.

I, for one, am not convinced these two are alone in this crime.

Posted by: justamomof4 [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 09:43 AM

You have no need to apologize, Mr. Spencer. You conducted yourself totally above board. I'm waiting for more information on these murders. I still think there is an Islamic jihad angle in there.

Posted by: dennisw [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 09:50 AM

........ And there's nothing final about this for me. I want more information on the accused, more information in general. At the risk of being racist, I will admit that Hispanic criminals like to use knives a lot more than others. They like to get personal with their victim or adversary. And Sanchez is accused of butchering three of the victims.

Posted by: dennisw [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 09:54 AM

I dont expect much from the DOJ after they have gone thru CAIR contioning I doubt they are taught about Kitman or that you have a name like Edward DeFazio
and still believe Mohammed was a Prophet of god.
Time will out the truth in this matter.

Posted by: KAOSKTRL [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 09:55 AM

Looks like they lifted the script from the old book/movie; "In Cold Blood".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_Cold_Blood

There is a reasonable explaination why they would seek to downplay/hide an islamic connection- mainly- terrorism thrives on publicity.

Posted by: kentim [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 10:00 AM

Surely you people realize that you, Robert Spencer, and Jihad Watch have now been completely discredited by your hateful and prejudiced actions. Will you not now at least do the decent thing, appologize to the Muslim ummah, and abandon your opposition to Islam?

Posted by: Norseman [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 10:02 AM

I'm puzzled by the fact that robbers don't usually slit throats. It's quite uncommon.

Posted by: ahem [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 10:09 AM

As sad is it may sound, I truly hope that these murders can be tied to Islamic intolerance. Maybe it's because I hate what they stand for so much I have become closed minded and paranoiac in my distrust of them.

At least then the Armanious family would not have died for nothing.

What is clear is that on line blogs can have an enormous impact on the news and public opinion.

Keep us the good work Robert. People like you give me hope for my children.

Posted by: BillR [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 10:09 AM

In addition to Robert's comments, we need to also remember that the now defunct barsyomat.com contained pictures and information of outspoken critics of Islam that were reportedly targeted for killing.

There were also numerous posts on that website which celebrated the deaths of the Aramonious family, and one post from an alleged group that claimed credit for them!

The killings as reported had all the trademarks of a jihadi killing, up to and including slit throats and the cutting out of religious symbols from the flesh of one of the daughters. I highly doubt, and I reject the NJ Police's assertions that these precision killings, reported to look like islamic revenge killings, were performed during a botched home robbery.

I'm reminded of Ann Coulter's words in the wake of the 9-11 terrorist attacks in which she wrote:

"...One hundred percent of the successful terrorist attacks on commercial airlines for 20 years have been committed by Arabs. When there is a 100 percent chance of being hijacked by an Arab Muslim Extremist, it ceases to be a profile. It's called a 'description of the suspect...."

If it looks like a muslim revenge killing, the chances are overwhelmingly high that it is one. I still believe it is what it appeared to be at the very beginning: muslim revenge killing. No amount of bullshit cajoling by Norseman or his kneepad wearing islamic apologists is going to change that. You and your ilk may get away with this killing, but the rest of us are on to you.

Posted by: ROPMA.NET Webmaster [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 10:14 AM

While obviously more facts will come out at the trial on the motivations of the alleged perpetrators and they will, of course,have to be found guilty of the charges, I think we all have to admit that the New Jersey police and Hudson County Prosecutor have done a very good job of identifying and arresting the supects so quickly. The murder only took place on January 14. Their behavior over the course of the investigation also can be viewed as a model for police and prosecutors elsewhere in the country. Would that all crimes could be solved so effectively.

It is also good news that people in America like the Armanius family can still proselytize for Christianity in the Muslim community without being killed.

All that Mr. Spencer can do is take his lumps and move on. Remember all the criticism Steven Emerson received after the Oklahoma City bombing. It's inevitable that in the struggle against militant Islam there are going to be some false alarms, but there will also be plenty more real battles to fight in the future. And Mr. Spencer has a very important leadership role to play, which he has been doing admirably and for which we are all grateful.

Posted by: Patrick [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 10:28 AM

All the evidence that has,and is still being gathered by detectives will still not necessarily rule out the possibility of a religious component. The evidence gathered will remain under raps as it should so as not to prejudice the case, or the potential jury pool. County prosecutor

Edward Defazio's reasons for deflecting the strong possibilty that the murders have a religious component are well founded in trying to protect the case from being tainted by that one direction only. Speculation,assumptions,hearsay do not make a case for the prosecution, though all leads are potentialy important in attaining hard and irrefutable evidence.
Mr Spencer could even possibly end up being subpoenad as witness in the case down the road still.

Posted by: Mackie [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 10:44 AM

Robert:

You need to be commended for your efforts in keeping the Armanious murders on the front burner as best you could, no matter what direction the case ends up going .

Sincerely ---Mackie

Posted by: Mackie [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 10:57 AM

I totally disagree with you Patrick. Robert Spencer does not have to "take his lumps and move on." I don't know what kind of background you and Mackie have, but the truth is that there are a lot of unanswered questions in this case. I also can't believe you think the prosecutor handled this really well, considering the fact that it took almost two months to get the bank records, something that could have easily been obtained through an emergeny supeona, because of the extenuating circumstances. These kinds of things happen all the time.

And why are so many thinking that our Justice system is so pure, honorable and sound? Do you know how many innocent people are imprisoned each year? How many times does the wrong person get arrested? Our prisons have a considerable number of innocent people.

Why are so many following the mainstream press so seriously. A press which is so cautious and usually waits for blogs like Spencer's to break the news first? And if it is true, as one poster wrote, that the AP writer on this story consistently writes in favor of Muslims, then that bias needs to be considered as well.

***I suggest you look up the long and strong history of corruption that is inherent in the state of NJ. How and why people get their positions in gov't etc., etc... I suggest you then check out the long and sordid history of corruption inherent in Jersey City. We are not in Marx's utopia here, and everyone does not do the right thing and tell the truth.***

It is not good to be so enamoured by authority, without asking the logical critical questions. The truth about this case may not come out for 10 or 20 years. But somehow the truth has a way of surfacing. What we do know is that we have problems with radical Islam in this country, and that Muslim converts are on the rise in the prison system. And if the report from NE Intelligence is accurate, McDonald would have no trouble lying to the kafir about his faith or affiliations. And from the comments made by the prosecutor, it does not look like he would even pursue that line of questioning.

Mary Rose had some interesting queeries on the other thread. I think these are important points worth considering and repeating here:

Like one of the previous comments, I read the CAIR press release. That organization, who has never acknowledged a guilty Muslim, even after a conviction,is proclaiming the guilty have been arrested, case closed. After reading one of the local news reports, I still have many questions, mainly about the police. Supposedly, the two men picked up had long rap sheets. The man that lived upstairs from the Armonious family was seen in the yard by one of the Armonious relatives the day of the murder. According to the story, McDonald continued to live above the murder scene until the police told him that he had to move, and then he moved just several blocks away. With the brutality of the murders, didn't he leave evidence all over the house,upstairs and downstairs, DNA and physical evidence, and why wasn't he the number one suspect from the start by the police, given his long crime history? And, given the DA's working theory that the motive was greed and not religion. I hope that the family of the victims can finally find some peace.

 

Posted by: overview [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 11:10 AM

What utter silliness, Mr. Spencer. But, hey, it's your credibility. Spend it as you will.

(For an alternate approach to the latest development in the story, consider the reaction of our own Charles Bird: http://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2005/03/crow_on_the_men.html).

Posted by: Jeff Barron [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 11:11 AM

OT news from the new head Dhimmicrat

Where is the country that Bill Clinton, a former president of the United States, feels ideologically most at home? Believe it or not, the country Bill Clinton so admires is the Islamic Republic of Iran.

Here is what Clinton said at a meeting on the margins of the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, just a few weeks ago: "Iran today is, in a sense, the only country where progressive ideas enjoy a vast constituency. It is there that the ideas that I subscribe to are defended by a majority."

"Iran is the only country in the world that has now had six elections since the first election of President Khatami (in 1997). (It is) the only one with elections, including the United States, including Israel, including you name it, where the liberals, or the progressives, have won two-thirds to 70 percent of the vote in six elections: Two for president; two for the Parliament, the Majlis; two for the mayoralties. In every single election, the guys I identify with got two-thirds to 70 percent of the vote. There is no other country in the world I can say that about, certainly not my own."


http://www.arabnews.com/?page=7§ion=0&article=59952&d=5&m=3&y=2005

Posted by: Bar [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 11:12 AM

"...resisting efforts by hate-mongers from outside our state to use the tragedy as a way to damage interfaith relations."

A hateful accusational labeling statement made by a hateful islamist.

Gee, all the islamist has to do is get someone to steal a few bucks, and wha-la, it's a robbery.

Surely you islamists realize that you, "Norseman" and your friends have now been completely discredited by your hateful agreement with the violent actions of Islam worldwide. Will you now at least do the decent thing and apologize to the non-islamic world and abandon your brainwashed following of Islam?

All of Islam plays the propaganda game.

All of Islam plays the distortion game.

All of Islam is deception period.

All of Islam plays the us-against-them game.

Islam does not correct itself.

There is no honor in Islam, only arrogance.

 

Posted by: Report [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 11:25 AM

"There is no honor in Islam, only arrogance"

Well stated!! Islam has to be the most arrogant, most over the top, most in your face, "faith" on the planet

Posted by: dennisw [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 11:35 AM

I also noticed on another news report that the police are continuing to collect and remove evidence from McDonald's apt. that he lived in after moving from the Armonious home. Presumably, he moved some of the evidence of the murders (perhaps family possessions that he had stolen?)with him to his new digs. I still have to wonder, given his criminal history, that he wasn't taken in to custody within 24 hours of the murders. Another strange detail can be questioned, if I remember correctly. Several days went by between the murders and the findings of the bodies. And so McDonald, who knew there were four dead bodies in the apt. below him that he was responsible for, continued to live upstairs? I know that there are many stupid criminals, but this man must have been not only incredibly stupid but possessed nerves of steel. I don't know about crime statistics, but surely 98% of murderers get as far away from their victims as possible. I hope that the press has many more questions for the DA and the police department.

Posted by: maryrose [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 11:37 AM

Norseman, assuming that wasn't sarcasm (in which case I apologize), and even assuming that these murders weren't religiously motivated (which at this stage is far from likely), why would being wrong about a single, isolated case be reason enough to 'abandon opposition to Islam'?

Given the horrors of islam in the past and present, and those conceived for the future, given the oppression and hatred generated in other cultures through immumerable interpretations of islam, given the ongoing (and foreseeably infinite, or at least until it is no more) misogyny of the islamic scripture, will you, Norseman, not at the very least do the honourable thing and apologize to non-muslims and women everywhere for oppression by your religion? Please, Norseman, do the right thing. Apologize and admit that other religions have as much right to exist as your own.

Do the right thing, Norseman - apologize. I know you are brave and intelligent enough to do so.

Geoff

Posted by: Geoff [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 11:37 AM

Murder-for-hire.

Posted by: CGW [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 11:40 AM

It's common among thieves to sell or trade stolen credit cards just like kids trading or selling baseball cards; "Hey bro, want to buy a Providian Visa?"

This is all speculation but they could have been conveniently inserted into this situation by cunning individuals simply because they were stupid, willing as*holes. If this is the case they will not keep their mouths shut for long.

And the extreme level of violence is not explained by the arrest of these two ignoramuses who went from ATM to ATM using this stolen credit card. Ordinary robbers/thieves do no inflict this type of horrific injury. This is not the typical force or fear that defines a robbery. This is personal.

I am absolutely sure that Mr Armonious would have given up the pin to the credit card rather that allow his little girl be tortured.


Did they really murder this entire family for a credit card?

Posted by: Kemaste [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 11:50 AM

Somebody mentioned "silliness" and "credibility".

HAhahahahah!!!!
I mention gullibility, naivety, and conformity.

We ARE living in a virtual-reality world created by the media and important cultural institutions. THEY are the MAIN PROPAGATORS of the "religion of peace" mantra. Is Mr. Bush an ignorant fool concerning this? Possibly, but even if he was not, the cultural/political climate maintained by the virtual-reality makers renders it impossible to openly contradict their version of reality.

To do so is to invite being labeled racist, hateful,paranoid, dangerous, or stupid.

I don't think the media/institutions are controlled by the government, I think it is the other way around.

Posted by: kentim [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 11:54 AM

I wanted to add one more thought. I truly believe that if it had been a Muslim family murdered, with all of the same details, including death threats on an Internet site, the DA and the police would have gone into automatic mode of politically correct and declared that they were searching for person or persons who had committed a hate crime against the Muslim family. Little or no mention of other motives would have been considered or discussed. Headlines across the country would have been larger and the coverage would have been more extensive. CAIR and Company would have kept the murders in the news much longer than the coverage given to the Copt family. The press would have had long articles, with plenty of CAIR quotes, about the hatred encouraged against Muslims since 9/11. In New Jersey, in the last year or two, a Muslim man murdered his pregnant non-Muslim wife and mother-in-law for not converting to Islam. Those Islamic (religiously)motivated murders were never mentioned as background information by reporters in doing the Armonious story. (Could religious extemism once more be the motive for brutal New Jersey murders?) I suppose that we will all have to live with a double standard by law enforcement and the mainstream media for a long time. It is a very discouraging reality to face.

Posted by: maryrose [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 12:01 PM

I am disgusted the more I read about this murder and the arrest of these ... I can't say it out loud.

They waited for "hours" for Mr Armanious to come home? This doesn't make sense to me. If this was a theft just for the sake of theft, why didn't they take the ring off Mrs Armonious' hand? What about the rest of the jewlery. Were they too stupid to search the bedroom after the famiy was bound? Did they feel that much comfort in the home of their victims to spend hours there?

PS

I remember Norseman from AOL's MidEast forum. He's pro IslamofFacist and a rabid Jew hater.
Yippee ...

Posted by: Kemaste [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 12:06 PM

I think this crime is about drug deal went bad remember the father of the family was out of job for the last six mounths before the killing , how can he support a family of 4 without a job and still have thousands of $$ at the bank ..?

Posted by: justme [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 12:43 PM

We will see at the trial what kind of case the police and Mr.De Fazio have. The fact is that petty criminals are and have always been the police's favourite candidates for clearing up mysterious or inconvenient crimes (or for obtaining "evidence" against third parties). If the prosecution relies only on a confession - if there is no cast-iron circumstantial and other evidence - then I for once will not be convinced. Listen to Bob Dylan's "Hurricane" - that was the Patterson, New Jersey police too.

Posted by: Paolo [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 12:45 PM

One lesson - never surrender. No matter how much pain they cause you, they will cause you more hurt as soon as you give them unopposed control. Die fighting, fight dieing.

Posted by: Walter E. Wallis [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 01:23 PM

The context and the evidence: the Beltway sniper, honor killings in Europe, assassinations and threatened assassinations in Europe, brutal treatment of Copts in Egypt, death threats against the family for proselytizing among Muslims, and the certainty that such behavior in Egypt, or in any other country that has a Muslims majority, would be dealt with forcefully and violently if necessary, the suspicious, consistent slitting of the throats, and other evidence of brutality that would seem to indicate a hate crime, or a ritualistic killing, including the desecration of religious symbols, and, of course, support for ritualistic murder of these proselytizing Infidels in Islamic scripture and traditions: there is plenty of evidence to warrant suspicion of an Islamic hate crime; in fact the evidence was and remains so suggestive, Muslims themselves, if they mean what they say about 'peace and tolerance', should be among the first to take the possibility of a hate crime originating in their community seriously and investigate. I have no doubt that if there were such prima facie evidence of a hate crime in, say, the Catholic community, priests, laity, church communities would own the evidence and start an inquiry of their own. But, what happens in the Islamic community? Blanket denials. Accusations of 'hate-mongering and 'Islamophobia'. Proclamations and comments that consider the case closed before a trail and the treatment of many important questions by the prosecution.

Spencer has consistently shown rational due diligence in presenting the evidence of this case and has nothing to apologize for. CAIR and others in the Islamic community, on the other hand, should apologize to all of us for their lack of concern and diligence regarding the real potential for explosive violence from Muslims in the United States; in this particular case, the behavior of the Muslim community merely reinforces the perception that they care more about the expansion of the ummah and the protection of Muslims, no matter who they are, than the security of the United States and its citizens. There is absolutely nothing in their behavior that indicates otherwise.

The proposed details of this crime are fantastic, and should leave any rational person with more questions. Spencer posts the comments above as a 'final note', but until these questions find some answers, for instance, why these alleged, incidental murderers brutalized and killed their victims in ways that suggest ritual and hate, the final note should not sound for a rational mind.

Posted by: JTF [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 01:23 PM

SO:
The 'thieves' that invaded the Armanious residence just 'happened' to behead this hapless family and had no connection to Islam whatever.

Right. And the dish ran away with the spoon....

And if you STILL believe any of this, I've got a property including a lava flow (of natural origin on the site, no less) in Louisiana to sell you encase you're interested.

Posted by: pythagoras [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 01:30 PM

There may well be at least one beneficial result of this horrible tragedy: Islamophobic hate sites like Jihad Watch have been exposed for what they really are. I hope that respectable civil rights organizations like the ACLU and CAIR file legal actions against Jihad Watch, Little Green Fascists, and similar hate sites.

This episode will also no doubt hasten the oversight of the internet by the United Nations and by the US government.

It is time for you slimy hate mongers to slither back under the rocks from which you came.

Posted by: Norseman [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 01:32 PM

Umm. Paolo...


"The Top 10 Myths about Hurricane Carter"
http://members.shaw.ca/cartermyths/
"The Movie isn't the true story. The Song isn't the true story.
"Hurricane" Carter hasn't told you the truth.
Think you know all about Rubin "Hurricane" Carter and the Lafayette Grill murders? Think again. Most of what you've been told, is false."
---


Or how bout this little gem...

"Guidelines for Countering Racial, Ethnic and Religious Profiling"
http://www.spj.org/diversity_profiling.asp

---------------

Or "MUMIYA JAMAL"(lying cop-killing scum)

http://www.danielfaulkner.com/
On July 3, 1982, having heard weeks of testimony, a jury of 12 citizens sentenced Mumia Abu-Jamal to death for the premeditated murder of Philadelphia Police Officer Daniel Faulkner. Over the next 19 years, Jamal's case has become one of the most publicized Death Penalty cases in the world. It has also become the most misunderstood. The twisted tales about this case are many. They have been told and retold by countless individuals who know little or nothing of the actual facts of the case.

Posted by: kentim [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 01:36 PM

Norseman, if you are going to scream in the mirror, at least stop the spittle from flying.

Sorry guy, best I can do after this past week...

Posted by: Gary [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 01:39 PM

Attention 'Norseman':

Islam has murdered at least 500 million human beings over the past 13 centuries (Yes, murdered). Islam, during its various conquests across the globe, has also brutally obliterated numerous cilivizations over the centuries: the Egyptian, the Syrian, the Byzantine, the Persian, the central Asian Buddhist civilization, Hindustan to name but a few. Millions of Greeks and other Balkan peoples were massacred by invading Muslims during the past five centuries or so (just ask THEM about Islam). Nothing will 'discredit' this harsh reality and certainly Robert Spencer is doing nothing wrong by alerting the world to this. In fact, I am grateful for persons like Mr. Spencer.

Oh, you don't believe ME? Then believe the Qur'an:

"And when the sacred months have passed, slay the infidels everywhere; beisege them, capture them set every ambush for them."

THAT Qur'anic passage is hard proof that Islam is conspiracy to commit murder and conspiracy to commit genocide--and incidentally, 'Norseman,' by taking Islam's side in this matter, you are making yourself an accomplice to these crimes which Islam is set up and DESIGNED to commit. If that doesn't bother you, then YOU ARE THE PROBLEM.

None of us believes that you are a 'norseman' anyway.

 

Posted by: pythagoras [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 01:46 PM

And the official explaination for the Beltway sniper was greed/money too.
His car had New Jersey plates. Also he was a homeless man getting calls from travel agents at the homeless shelter shortly after 9-11.

And what about the"John Doe" that had Arab appearance in the OKC case-- and the credible evidence uncovered by Jayna Davis?? Ignored, discounted.

Posted by: kentim [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 01:51 PM

This case is not concluded.
CAIR has already payed PR Newewire for a press release stating their jubilation that muslims weren't involved. But this case has only begun, not finished.



Everyone in the mass media is taking the scenario envisioned by the Hudson Cty Prosecutor's office AS THE GOSPEL.

But it's not the gospel truth and the alledged killers who were arrested have plead not guilty.


It seems odd that Mcdonald is such a cool calm collected killer.
So we're to believe that McDonald had the where withall to connoct a scheme to break ambush his downstairs landlord's apt and make off with the man's atm card and pin ?

I'm supposed to accept the scenario that McDonald and his buddy Snachez decided to don ski masks, arm themselves with a semi automatic weapon and then knock on Mrs Armanious' front door and be let in ?

I live near the Armanious' town and there is no way that any woman in her right mind goes to the front door and opens it to anyone. Particularly with ones children at home alone. And especially in Jersey City Heights.
The Armanious has suffered a minor break in several months before their murders and had a beefed up security system and were wary of strangers.

And then we're being told that after killing his landlord and his family in cold blood that McDonald continued to casually live upstairs with his two little kids and girlfriend and he laconically withdrew money from Mr Armanious' ATM card over the period of a week ?

Sorry but this case doesnt add up yet.

 

Posted by: sleek [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 02:55 PM

I will always believe that Muslims did this, no matter how much the media and the police attempt to put a towel over this pile of dump.

How many robbers take the time to stab a tattoo of a cross? They're covering this up so Muslims aren't eliminated from the U.S.

The gutless mainstream media has done a hell of a job keeping this quiet as well. Most people I've talked to haven't even heard that this family was killed.

And what about the one scum bag that was talking to Muslims in jail? Does that have nothing to do with it either? Ask the Copts who did this, and I bet you'll get a different answer than the one the cops delivered.

Whatever has to happen, they cannot be permitted to get by with this. Eye/Eye

Posted by: Prickzilla [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 03:02 PM

Jeff Barron,

I am not sure how Mr. Spencer's credibility has been damaged. Would you please elaborate?

Pythagoras,

Norseman doesn't care how many people have been murdered or will be murdered during the Islamic expansion. It is all part of Allah's will that the unbelievers be swept aside. It is but a pittance.

Norseman,

The title of your handle insults my Nordic heritage. No self respecting indigenous Scandanavian would prop up Muhammand and worship a god like Allah.

Theirs should be the hope of dying, with sword in my hand, after lopping off the head of a fanatical Muslim. Then a place will be guaranteed for them with Odin in the Halls of Valhalla.

The game can work both ways...

Posted by: Degenerated Matter [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 03:24 PM

Jeff Barron,

I am not sure how Mr. Spencer's credibility has been damaged. Would you please elaborate?

Pythagoras,

Norseman doesn't care how many people have been murdered or will be murdered during the Islamic expansion. It is all part of Allah's will that the unbelievers be swept aside. It is but a pittance.

Norseman,

The title of your handle insults my Nordic heritage. No self respecting indigenous Scandanavian would prop up Muhammand and worship a god like Allah.

Theirs should be the hope of dying, with sword in my hand, after lopping off the head of a fanatical Muslim. Then a place will be guaranteed for them with Odin in the Halls of Valhalla.

The game can work both ways...

Posted by: Degenerated Matter [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 03:24 PM

No, none of the details add up. There are too many unanswered questions. Why would McDonald bring a semi-automatic handgun and then search for a kitchen knife . . .ONE (?) knife used by both felons to murder this family. Reading the story below, it indicates that while Monica managed to get loose McDonald had enough time to fetch the kitchen knife, catch her and 'take' her to the bathroom.

Uh huh.

Here is part of that article:

Robbery Cited As Motive In Family Slaying
According to De Fazio, McDonald and Sanchez had met by prearrangement in the vestibule of the family's home at 7:30 p.m. on Jan. 11. Wearing a ski mask and armed with a semi-automatic handgun McDonald burst in through the Armanious family's first-floor door along with Sanchez, who wore no mask. Amal Garas and her daughters—who were alone in the house—were then bound with rope, gagged and placed in separate rooms, the prosecutor said.

The assailants then ransacked the house for money and waited two hours for Armanious, the father, to come home. De Fazio said upon his return, Armanious was then bound and gagged at gunpoint also.

The men took money and an A.T.M. card from Armanious's wallet and were searching for more cash when Monica, who had slipped her ropes and was trying to sneak out, recognized McDonald as the tenant upstairs.

McDonald then proceeded to take her into a bathroom and, with a knife from the kitchen, cut her throat, De Fazio said. To eliminate all the witnesses, Sanchez then cut the throats of Armanious in a bedroom, Garas in an adjoining room and Sylvia in the children's bedroom, the prosecutor added.

After the victims were missed at their jobs and schools over the following two days and failed attempts to contact the family, Garas's brother, Ayman Garas, called the Jersey City police on Jan. 14. The police then broke into the house at around 4 a.m. and found the bodies.

In the meantime, the robbers had used Armanious's A.T.M. card five or six times to withdraw a total of about $3,000 at cash outlets in Jersey City and Manhattan, said De Fazio. Investigators said surveillance cameras caught one or both suspects.


then read:
Robbery Cited As Motive in Family Slaying
Authorities said Hossam Armanious, 47, his wife, Amal Garas, 37, and their children, Sylvia, 15, and Monica, 8, were slain three days before their bodies were found Jan. 14, bound and gagged with puncture wounds to their heads and necks.


Why all the puncture wounds to the head? If you ask me, the details coming forth about the extent of the injuries indicate that this crime was personal.

Robbery - feh!

Posted by: miira [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 03:54 PM

Can anyone say red herring? Obviously they are very anxious to clear the case and are relieved to have a convenient suspect that does not fit within the profile of "religious hatred."

Still a very dangerous situation. Certainly an ambitious reporter should continue to investigate, but that person should also take great care not to end up as did the Armanious family or Danny Perle!

Americans will now have to live with fear of beheadings. Recently an elderly Muslim man was questioned about Islam and the Prophet. Indignantly he replied to the questioner to leave off asking such things or else "he would have to kill him"! So much for the religion of peace.

Posted by: epg [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 03:56 PM

I don't usually swear (a lot) but in this case I make an exception. Up yours, Norseman... I hope one of your Muslim mates will give you the infidel treatment soon and do what they did to this poor family.

Posted by: disillusionised_german [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 04:01 PM

Norseman:

Everyone, including the "bigots" at Jihadwatch knows there is a "tiny minority of moderates" amongst Muslims. However, the actions of "good" Muslims are everywhere apparent:

"[Theo van Gogh and] Education by Murder" in Holland

http://www.danielpip...

Excerpt:

In the course of being shot repeatedly, Van Gogh beseeched his killer, "Don't do it. Don't do it. Have mercy. Have mercy!" Then the killer stabbed his chest with one knife and slit his throat with another, nearly decapitating van Gogh.

The presumed murderer, Mohammed Bouyeri, 26, a Dutch-born dual Moroccan-Dutch citizen, left a five-page note in both Arabic and Dutch attached to Van Gogh's body with a knife. In it he threatened jihad against the West in general, ("I surely know that you, Oh Europe, will be destroyed"), and specifically against five prominent Dutch political figures.

Norseman:

Theo van Gogh, the children of Beslan, the 3000 dead on 9/11, the 200 dead on 3/11, etc. will all be there to greet you in hell. You will burn with a fire unabated; the skin will be seared from your body; you will scream with agony for eternity. And that's just for starters!

Posted by: Mentat [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 04:03 PM

There would be a lot less reason to suspect hate crimes as the motive if members of a religion that shall go unnamed would not go around posting death threats on bulletin boards.

I am still a little suspicious, on the whole I would be delighted to learn that it really was just a coincidence.

Posted by: Miss Moneypenney [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 04:08 PM

These murders were really quite politically inconevenient to the Establishment. So the police have blamed a couple of lowlife and hope the charges stick. If some do - case closed. If not, the trail would have gone cold by then. Win - win.

Posted by: DP111 [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 04:09 PM

"2. If the motive was robbery, why was the family killed?"

What are you, an idiot? How many people die each year in robberies and robbery attempts?

That's like asking "If the motive was murder, why was the victim raped?"

It's called "CRIME", it's not called "REASON".

Oh, and don't worry, I'm sure all your points will be addressed by the defense attorneys during the trial.

Posted by: The Klute [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 04:16 PM

More to the point: I think Jihadwatch needs to be commended for defending the rights of Copts to bring up the relgious motive. The Copts would have been much less angry if the prosecutor had been a less scared of offending the Muslims. The prosecutors dismissal of the Copts concerns ensured that the Copts who have many times been targets of Muslim violence in Egypt would think that they could never get a fair shake.
A far more reasonable response would have been "we are exploring every motive including the religious one."
Do you have ANY doubt that if a Muslim family had been found killed that the prosecutor would have said that? Or perhaps a gay couple and their children?
This is just a further example of the new law enforcement dictum: There are no hate crimes possible against Christians.

Posted by: Miss Moneypenney [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 04:18 PM

Mr. Islamofascist horseman,

NO, JIHAD WATCH IS NOT A HATE SITE, BUT I KNOW OF A RELIGION THAT IS VERY HATEFUL. WE DON'T HATE MUSLIM'S, WE ARE TRYING TO BRING THEM BACK INTO THE FOLD OF HUMANITY.

NO, WE WILL NEVER APOLOGISE TO YOUR RELIGION. WE WILL CONTIUE TO EXPOSE THE DAILY ATROCITIES COMMITED IN YOUR RELIGION'S NAME.

NO, WE WILL NEVER ALLOW THE U.N. TO CONTROL OUR RIGHT TO FREE SPEECH. IT SIMPLY WILL NEVER HAPPEN.

 

Posted by: William The Crusader [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 04:26 PM

"2. If the motive was robbery, why was the family killed?"

What are you, an idiot? How many people die each year in robberies and robbery attempts? ~ the klute

Klute~ is that as far as your tiny mind could read? He answers the question. But there is more to both the question and the answer than your tiny mind can comprehend, apparently.

Posted by: Gary [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 04:44 PM

Mr. Spencer:

Please tell us, are you proud of what you have created here? Have you read the hate-filled ravings of your followers? Do you believe that you bear no responsibility for encouraging what has demonstrably become a vile cult of hatred for Moslems?

As I mentioned above, I hope that the ACLU, CAIR, or other protectors of the civil rights of your victims persue legal action against you and your "Jihad Watch" hate site. You hipocritically prate endlessly about Islamic websites, accusing them of advocating religious strife, and then carry on a campaign to inflame hatred of innocent people because of an admitedly horrendous crime. It is indeed fortunate that cooler heads prevailed and the real criminals were brought to justice before you could bring your lynch mob into the streets.

You are a hate monger and should be exposed, along with your ignorant, demented followers.

P.S. For the record, I am not a Muslim, nor do I support violence commited by Muslims other than in self-defense.

Posted by: Norseman [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 04:44 PM

Call me stupid .. But if they both Plead "Not Guilty" How in the world do they have minute by minute details of the murders ?...

Also i read several accounts last night that said They were brandishing a gun... They had a gun and didnt use it ? But slit their throats ?

Posted by: Elisabeth [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 04:45 PM

You know Norseman,Ihavebeen trying to figure out which side you come down on for a long time, It is like you are two people. I haven't stated my opinion yet about these developments, and I am listening and watching, but Robert Spencer has nothing to apologize for.

Posted by: Carolyn2 [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 04:50 PM

Why murder someone using Islamic methods then go for the robbery motive? Why kill someone as a warning to others then renege by twisting and turning?

If they did murder the family because of what the father said then why is it not boasted about, otherwise it's a wasted effort for the culprits.

Like a previous corespondent posted, how many robbers murder their victims halal style?

I would like to add, how many people who act as a nemesis to Islam just happen to be murdered by throat stabbing burglars who act as a group?

Posted by: IceDragon [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 04:51 PM

The thing is, I am cooking dinner, and every time I think of a new point, well, I come in to the computer.
So, sorry if I am more soapboxing than discussing, but here is another point:

If the story Maria Sliwa was persuing didn't check out, isn't it better for the prosecutor to say that the story didn't check out than to say "our office has not received any names." What is someone who knows that they have received names supposed to think? No wonder the community was suspicious.

Still, I guess it is a man bites dog story when the killers aren't Muslim. (Or are they? Northeast Intelligence Network, "the world's most alarmist website," suggested a connection).

Posted by: Miss Moneypenney [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 04:53 PM

Something else, Norseman, It's funny how Jihadwatch is a hatesite now, you've been posting here for a while, when did it change for you?

Posted by: Carolyn2 [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 04:57 PM

I'm literally crying here from laughing so hard after reading all the comments from the delusional folks who are obsessed with Islam to the point where they canot digest any factual information without imploding. Hey guys, did you know that Islam killed 6985 gazillion people last week alone?

Everyone here is so caught up with the blame game and hate Islam agenda that have forgotten the victims in this case. Sad.

RIP the Armanious family.

Posted by: FahadKhan [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 04:59 PM

Norseman:

The only vile cult that is around that actually murders humans by slitting their throats and slowly letting them bleed to death, is islam. The muslim cult murderers also shout praise to their cult god while slowely hacking at the neck of their victim.

The only vile book is the koran, from which these buthers of humans get their inspiration. Mein Kampf comes a very poor second in vileness stakes.

Posted by: DP111 [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 04:59 PM

IceDragon,

"Why murder someone using Islamic methods then go for the robbery motive?"

You've seen the crime scene then? You have a degree in criminology with a minor in Islamic studies? You have any idea, other than a dislike of Islam to make this statement?

"Why kill someone as a warning to others then renege by twisting and turning?"

Know what this is all reminiscent of? That guy in SLC who made all those fake Mormon documents and started killing people to cover his tracks. Everyone thought that those killings were done by Mormon leaders to cover up heresy too. And we all know how right they were.

"If they did murder the family because of what the father said then why is it not boasted about, otherwise it's a wasted effort for the culprits."

Yes, because every murderer obviously boasts of their kills. And that's why we catch each and every murderer here in the US.

"how many robbers murder their victims halal style?"

Again... Proof?

"I would like to add, how many people who act as a nemesis to Islam just happen to be murdered by throat stabbing burglars who act as a group?"

I don't know. How many? Got a number? Got a clue?

Posted by: The Klute [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 05:00 PM

Norseman, you are as dishonest as you are obvious. "I do not support violence by Muslims except in self-defence"; yes, we are all familiar with Muslim notions of self-defence - where suicide bombers killing bunches of kids going to a night-club have been acting in self-defence. We know that there hasn't been a single murder committed by Muslims in 1400 years that has not been committed according to their notion of self-defence. Since they are at war with all the world, all violence is self-defence. So please don't come to us with those oily formulae - they do not work with us. And personally, I think I would like you rather more if you WERE a Muslim; as it is, you are worse even than a fellow-traveler. You are a man who carries his hatreds so dearly, who has so many resentments against the world he lives in, that he comes to support its enemies, merely because they are its enemies. There have been people like you before: the people who hated "demo-plutocracy" so much that they would have welcomed Communism, not because they had a Communist bone in their body, but for the pleasures of hate and revenge. And you have the cheek to preach at others about their supposed hate, you twisted, deranged mountain of loathing! The trouble is that you will never let yourself see in the black depths of your corrupt soul; but believe me, they are evident enough to others.

Posted by: Paolo [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 05:04 PM


"A jihadist by any other name........"

So now the story changes since they found two patsy's to take the fall,just a few oddities
here in the new theory.
First,why would a Ex-Neighbour have to force themselves in when they could just claim to be visiting to get some information.
Second,the girl was said to have been found dead in her bed so I guess the corpse got up and walked upstairs to her room and rested while bleeding to death.
Three,the jewelery wasn't taken and the ATM card
appears to be a ruse to have them get caught and take the fall.

This case stinks and watch how fast CAIR back-peddles when the connection to Islam rears its ugly head.

Here's a link to a slaughter of 14 female students by a Muslim that changed his name to blend in at school,note how the media pounced on all males and made this a "Violence against women" issue.
Gamil Gharbi had a Algerian Muslim father and learned his hate from "Daddy Dearest" that use Shariah Law to bet his wife into submission.
After completing his mission he turned the weapon on himself and became a martyr for Allah cause to wipe out the sin in the Western world of wealth
freedom.


http://archives.cbc.ca/IDD-1-70-398/disasters_tragedies/montreal_massacre/

Posted by: ala-sux [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 05:15 PM

I have some more questions that I can’t get any answers for:
1. Why didn’t the thieves take any of the jewelry from the house, which are easy to dismantle and sell with no trace to any pawnshop or elsewhere?
2. If they are so smart and thought that they may be tracked down by jewelry’s serial numbers or laser imprinted diamonds; why did they, so stupidly, use (an easy to track) ATM card at a bank with camera’s eye wide open!
3. When Monica recognized one the robbers and they killed her, why they waited for the father?
4. If the killings were to eliminate any eyewitnesses and because the robbery gone badly, why were they very precise?

Answers any one.

“Coptic by birth, American by the grace of God.”

Posted by: Ramses XII [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 05:16 PM

"Clutching at straws..."

Keep it up guys, you're all good for a laugh. :-)

Posted by: FahadKhan [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 05:18 PM

Robert, I have been following this heinous crime since DAY 1. I reference your blog in mine, and rebut some of your points. I certainly hope and pray that the police are not doing a cover-up job, as suggested by some of the other posters. There was a case in the Alps a few years back where millionaire businessman Xavier Flactif vanished along with his wife and three children. Eventually police agreed it WAS murder, but it wasn't until they found the killer that they found the burned bodies and closed out the case. What is so very troubling is that a single individual could overpower Mr. Flactif (fit like Vin Diesel at the time) and his wife and the kids and kill them all.
The police may be right in the Armanious case. If you carefully scrutinize the NY city newspaper reports in the early days of the investigation, the police were curious about a "neighbor" but played their cards close to the vest, and it's good they did. Ultimately, time will tell. Robert, thank-you for bringing your points of view to the table.
Dave

Posted by: Dave Lucas [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 05:36 PM

"Swiss Seize Five Suspected Extremists" (the AP story below) features a photo of the beheaded Paul Johnson, by the way. You know, the guy who liked Islam a lot, and enjoyed his expat life in Saudi Arabia until it was suddenly cut short.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050304/481/ny19103042017

Somehow, a picture like that makes me a lot more (ahem) sanguine about having raised the possibility that there was a religious motivation in the Jersey killings.

Posted by: Miss Moneypenney [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 05:39 PM

If the police are right, and this is a big IF, as the pressure to get the "right" result would have been enormous, then it calls into question the slaughter of Daniel Pearl and Van Gogh. Maybe they were not slaughtered at all but in fact were victims of a robbery gone wrong. Maybe Daniel and Van Gogh refused to hand over the PIN numbers of their credit cards. But if so, why all those allah akhbars while slowly hacking the neck of Daniel Pearl?

Posted by: DP111 [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 05:45 PM

Ok, Mr Lucas at least came here with an intelligent piece. These other guys must be Democratic Underground rejects. With all the losses their leadership is suffering in congress and around the world... not to mention all the judges soon to be appointed by President Bush... it must be tough finding something to perk themselves up.

At least until drugs are legalized...

Off for the night!

Posted by: Gary [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 05:47 PM

To Klute. It's looking like a duck and it's walking like a duck, of course it will be dismissed as a bizarre and complicated conspiracy, it's not. Muslims or Christian/atheist apostates murdered (allegedly) a Christian family end of story. It's in New Jersey, it's going to be all over the country unless you do something about it.

Posted by: IceDragon [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 07:18 PM

Ex Christian apostates.

Posted by: IceDragon [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 07:19 PM

I have a question: How can Defazio get an accurate description of the murderers...from a corpse? Did he hire a Psycic or a Seer? Did he hold a seance? Something is just not right here.

Posted by: Ummagumma [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 07:33 PM

We know very little as yet.

It would not surprise me at all if it was murder by proxy. These 2 alleged killers, are they not Muslim converts? Sure? We can only hope that the truth does come out, and if it does THAT will most likely be the truth!

For 3 grand and a ring, do you murder a whole family? If they had a gun, wouldn't it be easier to just take the next bank or the next liquor store?

Posted by: Terminator [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 07:49 PM

Mr. Spencer, I want to commend you on your fantastic job with this case. Thank you!

patrick, don't be so sure steven emerson was wrong (never mind Mr. Spencer!) about the Oklahoma City bombing. Read Jayna Davis's (hi kentim) book, "The Third Terrorist," and then you can decide who was wrong.

Norseman seems more like a name that would be chosen by a White Supremacist. They like evoking Nordic things.

Posted by: Esther [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 07:57 PM

I've got a bridge to sell Defazio.

Norseman you are not. If you want hate, extremism, murder instructions including who and how, i can suggest several islamic web sites for you, newspapers, magazines and religous literature.

islam is a sad sad business; hundreds of millions have already fallen, with i suspect, many more to come, before we see the end of it.

This murder case, from its initial reporting to the present, has been handled to avoid lynch mobs, with innocent people being assaulted or killed. And maybe it was best handled that way. We would, however, like, eventually, to know the truth.
The authorities must perceive real danger of an explosion of anti-muslim sentiment.

R.S., thank you for this web site, and for staying on top of this case. We have not heard the last of it, for sure.

Posted by: dby [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 08:01 PM

If a something walks, talks and looks like a duck (in this case what looks like an islamic inspired murder) why is it hateful to bring up the possibility that it is a duck, especially when everyone else says it is a monkey? When peoples lives are at risk or have already been lost why can't we have this basic freedom? I and many others just want the murderers of 4 innocent human beings murdered in a unbeleivably sadistic manner brought to justice. The thought of those little girls being tied up while watch their own parents throats being slit and knowing they are next makes me physically ill.

Robert Spencer and others brought up the possibilty of islam being involved because others seemed to be ignoring this very obvious possibilty. The dead deserved a full investigation without anything being swept under the carpet for the sake of political correctness.

Ofcourse Noresman would argue that we shouldn't have the freedom of speech to do this. Life without such freedoms is worthless.

Posted by: obl r us [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 08:14 PM

Robert,

I want to thank you for keeping us informed concerning this terrible event. I also would like to thank all who posted on this site who has taken the time to bring forth different points of view and many questions that have not been presented. These are most important in the country becoming aware of the enemy. Without concerned and intelligent view and questions being asked, the country becomes passive, unaware, and blind as to what is going on. The disaster of 9-11 is a good example. It was not only a disaster if of itself, but a disaster in that the red flags have been flying for many, many years and no one “saw” it coming. It did cause a lot of people to realize there is a very cunning enemy we had no idea that existed in this world. The more people realize who the enemy is and the methods he operates with, the better we can prevent crimes such as this. It would be a crime not to. I will say this to you, Norseman, you have no idea what goes on in an investigation where there are a number of detectives and investigators. Every ones views, opinions, and theories are first put on the table - no different than the freedom to do so on this site. For you to condemn this right, makes one very suspicious of you and your intentions. After reading about all the brutal killings that the Muslims have inflicted on innocent people around the world in the name of Allah, I would not consider it a religion, but rather a devious cult. Now if there is any “peaceful” Muslims that would come forward and make an effort to identify the criminal element, then I will perhaps change my view. So, in the meantime, keep up the good work Mr. Spencer, Hugh, and DC Watson and all those on JihadWatch!!!!

Posted by: THSIMJ [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 08:26 PM

P.S. Ofcourse there will be times when what looks like, talks like and walks like a duck is a monkey. However if we don't exercise the freedom to say and seriously and thoroughly consider it might be a duck, the times when it is a duck we may never find that out (because we refused to even think it could be so).


When someone gets death threats from Islamists, and the islamists celebrate their murder online, some even claiming credit for it it is political correctness gone insane to say "Gee it musn't be the islamists then. We will not investigate those guys at all. Lets see...I bet it was the an old grandmother with knee relacements...blah blah political correct blah." This kind of insane behaviour would be sort of funny and even excusable if peoples lives were not involved.

Posted by: obl r us [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 08:28 PM

Isn't it remarkable that a Judges' family is tragically murdered and the media can not make frequent enough references to "white supremacist groups" as possible suspects. A New Jersey family is murdered in no less grisly a manner and media will not dare discuss the possibility of Islamic groups. Motive can be clearly established in both instances, but that doesn't seem to matter. In the next few days, one or more MSM outlets will run a special on the American Nazi Party or Skinheads in order to underline their terrible beliefs and brutal past. What are the odds that we will see a similar expose on Wahabi Islam?

Posted by: RightWriter [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 08:36 PM

During this time, most Muslims and Muslim sympathizers are riding high with what they consider a victory. They have been so unfairly targeted. They are sitting back watching the Muslim bashers backtrack or grasp for straws, as those Muslim sympathizers are claiming.

I would like to remind those smirking Muslims that at least people like Mr. Spencer and folks on this site only expressed suspicions. Yes, a few directly accused Muslims for committing this crime. All this has just been talk. Everyone here has talked and expressed opinions.

Would the Muslims like to be reminded of their reactions in countries like Sudan, Egypt, Lebanon, Nigeria, etc. when a Muslim person or family was killed, rumors would spread that the Christian neighbors did it, or Christians were behind it. Do you know how many innocent Christians were slaughtered as revenge killings?

Have postings by Christians and civilized people insulted your egos? Poor people. At least you can go to bed tonight not fearing that a mob of angry Christians will slaughter you as you've done and still do today to the minority Christians who live amongst you in the Middle East and other places.

Posted by: Crusader [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 09:32 PM

Hey, RightWriter.
Here's something remarkable-- the method to their madness:

http://www.spj.org/diversity_profiling.asp
"Society of Professional Journalists"

Guidelines for Countering Racial, Ethnic and Religious Profiling
Diversity > Guidelines for Countering Profiling
On Oct. 6 at its National Convention in Seattle, the Society of Professional Journalists passed a resolution urging members and fellow journalists to take steps against racial profiling in their coverage of the war on terrorism and to redouble their commitment to:

Use language that is informative and not inflammatory;
Portray Muslims, Arabs and Middle Eastern and South Asian Americans in the richness of their diverse experiences;
Seek truth through a variety of voices and perspectives that help audiences understand the complexities of the events in Pennsylvania, New York City and Washington, D.C.

Guidelines

Visual images

Seek out people from a variety of ethnic and religious backgrounds when photographing Americans mourning those lost in New York, Washington and Pennsylvania.
Seek out people from a variety of ethnic and religious backgrounds when photographing rescue and other public service workers and military personnel.

Do not represent Arab Americans and Muslims as monolithic groups. Avoid conveying the impression that all Arab Americans and Muslims wear traditional clothing.
Use photos and features to demystify veils, turbans and other cultural articles and customs.

Stories

Seek out and include Arabs and Arab Americans, Muslims, South Asians and men and women of Middle Eastern descent in all stories about the war, not just those about Arab and Muslim communities or racial profiling.
Cover the victims of harassment, murder and other hate crimes as thoroughly as you cover the victims of overt terrorist attacks.
Make an extra effort to include olive-complexioned and darker men and women, Sikhs, Muslims and devout religious people of all types in arts, business, society columns and all other news and feature coverage, not just stories about the crisis.

Seek out experts on military strategies, public safety, diplomacy, economics and other pertinent topics who run the spectrum of race, class, gender and geography.
When writing about terrorism, remember to include white supremacist, radical anti-abortionists and other groups with a history of such activity.
Do not imply that kneeling on the floor praying, listening to Arabic music or reciting from the Quran are peculiar activities.
When describing Islam, keep in mind there are large populations of Muslims around the world, including in Africa, Asia, Canada, Europe, India and the United States. Distinguish between various Muslim states; do not lump them together as in constructions such as "the fury of the Muslim world."

Avoid using word combinations such as "Islamic terrorist" or "Muslim extremist" that are misleading because they link whole religions to criminal activity. Be specific: Alternate choices, depending on context, include "Al Qaeda terrorists" or, to describe the broad range of groups involved in Islamic politics, "political Islamists." Do not use religious characterizations as shorthand when geographic, political, socioeconomic or other distinctions might be more accurate.

Avoid using terms such as "jihad" unless you are certain of their precise meaning and include the context when they are used in quotations. The basic meaning of "jihad" is to exert oneself for the good of Islam and to better oneself.
Consult the Library of Congress guide for transliteration of Arabic names and Muslim or Arab words to the Roman alphabet. Use spellings preferred by the American Muslim Council, including "Muhammad," "Quran," and "Makkah ," not "Mecca."

Regularly seek out a variety of perspectives for your opinion pieces. Check your coverage against the five Maynard Institute for Journalism Education fault lines of race and ethnicity, class, geography, gender and generation.
Ask men and women from within targeted communities to review your coverage and make suggestions.
Web resources on this topic:

Informational Resources on Arab-Americans, the Arab World and Islam
100 Questions and Answers about Arab-Americans: A Journalist’s Guide
The Quran online (1 or 2)
The South Asian Journalists Association provides a stylebook, sources and a roundup of coverage for journalists.

Newswatch is a site dedicated to diversity in journalism, with commentary on media performance. It is a project of the Center for Integration and Improvement of Journalism of San Francisco State University and a collaboration between the Native American Journalists Association, the National Association of Hispanic Journalists, the National Association of Black Journalists, the Asian American Journalists Association and the National Lesbian and Gay Journalists Association.
Reuters explains its policy on the word "terrorist."

Maynard Institute for Journalism Education
The Religion Newswriters Association maintains an extensive set of resources on religion and covering religion.
The mission of the Anti-Defamation League is to combat anti-Semitism andbigotry of all kinds. One section of its Web site details how ADL leaders have responded to anti-Muslim and anti-Arab-American violence.
Articles

Nothing foreign about Islam in America

Posted by: kentim [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 09:50 PM

This episode will also no doubt hasten the oversight of the internet by the United Nations and by the US government.
Posted by Norseman

The slimy scumbags at the U.N. will NEVER get their filthy hands on the internet! The U.S. government does not interfere in the exchange of free speech, but those bastards at the U.N. would put a stop to it immediately, except the Islamic hate fests.
The U.N. would love to control the entire world and its corrupt bureaucrats conjure up new "treaties" daily to achieve that goal, at the expense of America. Screw the U.N. It should be dismantled, abolished, the sooner the better.
If you consider this a "hate" site, you're a deluded idiot. Compare it to the hundreds of vitriolic Islamic terrorist/jihadist sites where all they talk about is killing infidels and ruling the world. Get a grip!

Posted by: Susanp [TypeKey Profile Page]at March 5, 2005 10:07 PM

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